Posts by Doug Mason

27

The Watchtower Society is confused over its “Seventy Years” and "Seven Times"

by Doug Mason in

until now, the watch tower society [wts] has argued that the 70 years was a period during which judah was totally and completely depopulated.

for this reason, it constantly argued that the period commenced when the jews left judah and entered egypt.

jerusalem was destroyed in the fifth month (two months before october/tishri).

Doug Mason

They know they are telling the truth because they have to keep correcting themselves:

“Some have called Jehovah’s witnesses ‘false prophets’ because, in times past, they have viewed things a certain way and, later, have made a change through their official publications. Or, there may have been practices by some members in the organization that have been permitted to continue for a time for lack of knowledge as to how to handle these things, but later they have learned from God’s Word what his will is and have gone ahead and made the necessary corrections. False prophets do not correct themselves” (The Watchtower, June 1, 1967, page 331)

27

The Watchtower Society is confused over its “Seventy Years” and "Seven Times"

by Doug Mason in

until now, the watch tower society [wts] has argued that the 70 years was a period during which judah was totally and completely depopulated.

for this reason, it constantly argued that the period commenced when the jews left judah and entered egypt.

jerusalem was destroyed in the fifth month (two months before october/tishri).

Doug Mason

Fisherman,

You cannot imagine the smile you put on my face with your observation that WW1 started two months early. Maybe some can suggest here for the lurking Bethelites how to incorporate that fact.

At the moment, the WTS ends its "70 years" when Jews assembled at the temple site in the 7th month. Then they travel back over a period when they demand that Judah was totally depopulated. Using their hoped-for year of 537 they go back to the 7th month, when Jews left Judah and entered Egypt (not serving Babylon).

So, what criteria would they be prepared to drop to land on August 1, 1914?

In passing, I would add that while up to now they have waited until the land was (apparently) depopulated before starting their "70 years", the WTS is quite prepared to allow the returning exiles to be settled in their homes and then walk to Jerusalem before ending this period of "depopulation".

So, hopefully some can give the Writing thinktank a leg-up and solve this dilemma for them.

Or they could drop WW1 altogether, accept 587 and land on some part of their history when Rutherford made an announcement or released a book.

This should not be difficult since Jesus only told his disciples to watch out for deceivers and not be distracted at the stories of wars and so on they were hearing. He never mention whether the wars would be large or small, and so on.

Maybe I should stop trying to rescue them from their quicksand.

Doug

27

The Watchtower Society is confused over its “Seventy Years” and "Seven Times"

by Doug Mason in

until now, the watch tower society [wts] has argued that the 70 years was a period during which judah was totally and completely depopulated.

for this reason, it constantly argued that the period commenced when the jews left judah and entered egypt.

jerusalem was destroyed in the fifth month (two months before october/tishri).

Doug Mason

Greener,

In reading "Millennial Dawn" (which "dawned" in the 1870s) and the renamed "Studies in the Scriptures", be very aware of which printing you are reading.

For example, page 342 of Volume 3 (1902 edition) says gives the dimension as "3416 inches" (whatever a "pyramid inch" is) whereas the later 1924 edition has stretched the pyramid (in the sun?) to "3457 inches".

In the earlier version, Russell wrote: "1874 was the chronological beginning of the time of trouble" whereas the later editions changed this to: "1914 will be the beginning of the time of trouble".

I reproduce these pages and others at: http://www.jwstudies.com/Changed_MD_and_SS_words.pdf

My statement regarding Russell's dual "fulfilments" of 1914 (re Leviticus 26 and Daniel 4) refer to his article in 1876. See: http://www.jwstudies.com/How_Many_Mistakes_in_one_Paragraph.pdf

Doug

27

The Watchtower Society is confused over its “Seventy Years” and "Seven Times"

by Doug Mason in

until now, the watch tower society [wts] has argued that the 70 years was a period during which judah was totally and completely depopulated.

for this reason, it constantly argued that the period commenced when the jews left judah and entered egypt.

jerusalem was destroyed in the fifth month (two months before october/tishri).

Doug Mason

Greener,

There are so many issues related to this subject! Some I cover with Studies at: http://www.jwstudies.com/babylonian_captivity.html

Regarding Russell, he had two fulfilments with 1914.

(1) The "7 times punishment" of the Jews as predicted at Leviticus 26

(2) The "7 times" madness of the gentile nations, as predicted by Nebuchadnezzar's dream experience (Daniel 4) - the king of Babylon symbolised the mad state of the Gentiles whereas today the WTS says Nebuchadnezzar symbolises God's kingdom(!)

As a consequence, he expected that 1914 would see the end of gentile dominance and the restoration of the Jews to supreme dominance. Hence the organisation was "Zion's Watch Tower", meaning Zionism, literally. He gave several major speeches to Zionists, telling them they did not need to be converted to Christianity.

Doug

27

The Watchtower Society is confused over its “Seventy Years” and "Seven Times"

by Doug Mason in

until now, the watch tower society [wts] has argued that the 70 years was a period during which judah was totally and completely depopulated.

for this reason, it constantly argued that the period commenced when the jews left judah and entered egypt.

jerusalem was destroyed in the fifth month (two months before october/tishri).

Doug Mason

Prologos,

I quote:

“The 2,520 years began in October 607 B.C.E., when Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians”. -- “What Does the Bible Really Teach?”, page 217

“Jerusalem was destroyed in the year 607 B.C.E. That was the start of the “seven times.” (2 Kings 25:1, 8-10; Ezekiel 21:25-27)” -- “What Can The Bible Teach Us?”, page 217

Doug

27

The Watchtower Society is confused over its “Seventy Years” and "Seven Times"

by Doug Mason in

until now, the watch tower society [wts] has argued that the 70 years was a period during which judah was totally and completely depopulated.

for this reason, it constantly argued that the period commenced when the jews left judah and entered egypt.

jerusalem was destroyed in the fifth month (two months before october/tishri).

Doug Mason

Fisherman,

Broadly speaking, that is my understanding of what the WTS's position has been for quite some time: Jerusalem destroyed in the 5th month, then Gedaliah set up as governor; he is murdered; the last Jews living in Judah enter Egypt two months after Jerusalem's destruction. This exodus therefore occurs in the 7th month, which corresponds with October. When those Jews enter Egypt, the WTS starts its "seventy years" and its "seven times".

This is the methodology described in the October 1, 2011 Watchtower magazine.

These recent books I cited incorrectly state that Jerusalem was destroyed in the 7th month (October) and they contradict the previously held position by now stating that their time periods begin when Jerusalem was destroyed.

They do not know basis of their own foundation doctrine.

Doug

27

The Watchtower Society is confused over its “Seventy Years” and "Seven Times"

by Doug Mason in

until now, the watch tower society [wts] has argued that the 70 years was a period during which judah was totally and completely depopulated.

for this reason, it constantly argued that the period commenced when the jews left judah and entered egypt.

jerusalem was destroyed in the fifth month (two months before october/tishri).

Doug Mason

Until now, the Watch Tower Society [WTS] has argued that the “70 years” was a period during which Judah was totally and completely depopulated. For this reason, it constantly argued that the period commenced when the Jews left Judah and entered Egypt. The following comes from the recent October 1, 2011 Watchtower magazine:

“When did the land of Judah become desolated and unworked? … A Jewish revolt brought the Babylonians back to Jerusalem. (2 Kings 24:20; 25:8-10) They razed the city, including its sacred temple, and they took many of its inhabitants captive to Babylon. Within two months, “all the people [who had been left behind in the land] from the least to the greatest, together with the army officers, fled to Egypt for fear of the Babylonians.” (2 Kings 25:25, 26, NIV) Only then, in the seventh Jewish month, Tishri (September/October), of that year could it be said that the land, now desolate and unworked, began to enjoy its Sabbath rest. To the Jewish refugees in Egypt, God said through Jeremiah: “You have seen all the disaster that I brought upon Jerusalem and upon all the cities of Judah. Behold, this day they are a desolation, and no one dwells in them.” (Jeremiah 44:1, 2, English Standard Version) So this event evidently marked the starting point of the 70 years.” (The Watchtower, October 1, 2011, page 27)

Jerusalem was destroyed in the fifth month (Jeremiah 1:3; 52:12). Interestingly, the above passage from the magazine failed to include 2 Kings 25:3, which mentions that Jerusalem was broken into in the fourth month.

The WTS has always pointed to the seventh month (Tishri/October) as the starting point of its 70 years, given that it always started the period two months after Jerusalem was destroyed, relating this to the Jews’ exodus into Egypt. They have constantly said that this exodus into Egypt took place 2 months after Jerusalem was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar. This is incorrect, as the two events are separated by at least 2 years, and possibly by 4 years.

(see my Study at: http://www.jwstudies.com/Did_Jews_exit_after_two_months.pdf)

Nevertheless, in its more recent publications, the WTS has thrown all of its arguments into confusion, saying that the “seven times” began when Jerusalem was destroyed.

“Jerusalem was destroyed in the year 607 B.C.E. That was the start of the ‘seven times.’” (“What Can the Bible Teach Us?”, page 217)

Jerusalem was destroyed in the fifth month (two months before October/Tishri). Or is the WTS starting the “seven times” of Daniel two months before the “70 years” of Jeremiah? Does Daniel at Chapter 9 say that this separation of the “seven times” from the “seventy years” was his “understanding of Jeremiah’s letter?

The WTS is absolutely incorrect when it says that Jerusalem fell in the seventh month:

“The 2,520 years began in October 607 B.C.E., when Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians and the Davidic king was taken off his throne.” (“What Does the bible Really Teach?”, page 217)

The diagram at page 216 of “What Does the Bible Really Teach?” shows Jerusalem being destroyed in the seventh month. That contradicts the Biblical account.

Maybe the Bible does “really teach” something.

A dose of confusion over the subject that is absolutely fundamentally significant to the WTS’s existence.

Doug

106

2015. Annual meeting

by obarac in

any news?

Doug Mason

Data-Dog,

You posed a question regarding "water baptism". First, it is not impossible that John belonged to a stict sect similar to the Essenes, where water purification played a part. But in answer to your question:

Jesus baptized -- John 3:26.

Doug

12

2015, Sept-Oct-Nov-Dec--Review Answer Sheets!

by Atlantis in

2015, september, october, november, december review answer sheets.. .. click the green download button.. http://wwwb.fileflyer.com/view/slgxfbi.

.. .. http://wwwb.fileflyer.com/view/6jvjra4.

petra!.

Doug Mason

Yes, the answers to my questions are available in quite a number of works written by Bible scholars.

Likely an easily read introduction is: "Who Wrote the Bible?" by Richard Elliott Friedman. It focuses primarily on the first five books, but it provides an insight into the religious politics of the time (centred around the neo-Babylonian Exile).

Reading on subjects such as the Deuteronomic History opens the world in which these writings were produced.

Jeremiah (and Baruch) promised restoration, but a few centuries later the Jews were still under the control of a foreign power. This caused the eruption of apocalyptic eschatology in the 2nd century; one of the writings produced during this period was the Book (scroll) of Daniel. It was a collection of myths and legends - many of which distorted the history of the time it is set in. It was not a prophecy but a writing for that immediate community. Hence its place in the Jewish (Tanakh) writings.

I must stop rambling on. Apologies.

Doug

12

2015, Sept-Oct-Nov-Dec--Review Answer Sheets!

by Atlantis in

2015, september, october, november, december review answer sheets.. .. click the green download button.. http://wwwb.fileflyer.com/view/slgxfbi.

.. .. http://wwwb.fileflyer.com/view/6jvjra4.

petra!.

Doug Mason

The answers to my questions are provided in the relevant scholarly works, such as Bible Commentaries, and surveys, at least.

Without going into extensive details, the broad answer is that Kings was drawn up into its current form (based on earlier annals) in the context of the neo-Babylonian Exile (6th century BCE). Today's scholars use the term "Deuteronomic History", seeing a unity in Deuteronomy, Judges, Joshua, Samuel and Kings. The book of Kings thus placed a certain bias on the record of the events from the view of the time - nothing wrong with that, but it needs to be noted.

Chronicles, however, was written some 200 years later, and subtle differences show that the author(s) felt the need to "correct" the record to make it accord with their understandings. One example is the difference in the way that Kings and Chronicles records the experiences of King Manasseh of Judah.

Recognising the human narrative that lies beneath the record they left (repeatedly edited, of course), helps to provide the best understanding, rather than thinking these writers and editors (redactors) had us in mind.

Doug

====================

The setting of the book(s) of Chronicles is the postexilic community of Judea. Nevertheless, the specific time of the writing of Chronicles remains open to debate. Proposals range from the Persian time frame (400s BC) to the Greek/Hellenistic time frame (300s-200s BC) to the Maccabean/Hasmonean time frame (100s BC). … Observations indicate a likely range of 430-340 BC for the writing of Chronicles, with some preference for the earlier side of this range (ca. 430-400 BC). -- The Expositor’s Bible Commentary: 1 Chronicles-Job, pages 25-26, Tremper Longman III & David E, Garland, General Editors, Zondervan, 2010.

The Chronicler is not a historian in the strict western sense. To him Israel’s history was pregnant with spiritual and moral lessons, which he brought to birth through a kind of historical midwifery. He is not concerned so much with the bare facts of Israel’s history as with their meaning. If all valid historical writing is interpretative, the Chronicler’s is highly interpretative. Above all, it is paradigmatic history. As a paradigm tells us how to frame the various tenses of a verb, Chronicles tells its readers how and how not to live, by presenting both positive and negative role models. – Old Testament Survey: The Message, Form, and Background of the Old Testament, page 543, William Sanford Lasor, David Allan Hubbard, Frederic William Bush William Eerdmans, 1982, 1986